I was interested today to read an article in the Herald promoting the suggestion that Scotland needs legislation to criminalise what is called tragedy chanting. You will all know where this is going. You can all see the outlines of where such a policy is headed and what it is designed to address.
Of course, this is an effort to criminalise chants about the Ibrox disaster.
Now, let me be frank before I continue here. I am not minimising the impact of those chants. I am the last person in the world who is going to minimise the impact of them. I have been in what I will call altercations with people over those chants in the past, one of them with someone very close to the family.
I have always said that if you are the kind of person who thinks it is appropriate to sing songs mocking football fans who died at a game, you are a piece of shit. You and I have nothing in common except that we live on the same planet and breathe the same air.
So, legislation that criminalises your ugly little arse?
I have no problem with that at all.
But this is, after all, the same country where a national title recently ran a story which sought to paint a footballer who had committed an act of gross bigotry as the real victim because he got a ten-match ban and took a little stick in some corners of the media. Oh, wailed the piece, “he had no allies”, apparently, as if allies were something he was entitled to expect after what he did.
The same people who are calling for this law have uttered not one word, or certainly not enough words, about bigoted, sectarian and even racist chanting from stands all over Scotland, much of which has been going on for decades.
We have hate crime legislation now. I am not a great fan of that law, to be perfectly honest, but at least I have not said I would be willing to break it. I would not expect to keep any job I held after making such a statement. Of course, other people have different standards, and some people do keep their jobs after saying egregious things like that. Some people do, and they consider themselves largely untouchable.
What I am saying is that we have a very clear set of priorities in this country when it comes to this stuff. And when I say a very clear set of priorities, I mean a very warped set of priorities, because some things are still treated as tolerable even when they should not be.
Already, I know there are people smarting at that suggestion. They will wail that nobody ever said racist or sectarian chanting in football grounds was acceptable. They will insist there is no suggestion that this stuff is okay.
But I have to assume otherwise.
I have to assume otherwise because there has been no realistic effort to tackle it. Nobody is proposing private members’ bills against it. Whenever the issue is mentioned, we are told, perversely, that it is normal, that it is cultural, that tackling it is impossible anyway. Indeed, some people do not even think it is a problem.
Gordon Smith once made that very argument on national radio, to the incredulity of his co-hosts. A little over a decade later, he was the SFA’s chief executive.
Look at this in its full context. We may soon have protections for the dead and for their families, and I am not saying those protections should not exist. They absolutely should. But at the same time, there are no effective sanctions against many thousands of people singing about ethnic cleansing and mass murder, against the living.
Let us not pretend, as a society, that we do not know what some of those songs promote. I am tired of Scotland’s pretence that these things are other than they are. I am tired of people acting as if the words do not mean what they plainly mean. I am tired of being told that songs steeped in hatred are just part of the colour and noise of football.
They are not. They are hatred. And you also know that nobody who matters is standing up for you in any realistic way on this issue.
What is clear is that although this stuff is a gross stain on this country, and although it continues to be heard in grounds across Scotland, the appetite for tackling it is virtually non-existent. So, I have to conclude that the rights of Catholics, and especially Irish Catholics in Scotland, are not a priority. Protecting us from bile and hatred is not a priority.
And as bad as those songs are, as vile as some of the chants from those stands have been, it is the idea that we are not a priority which is somehow most offensive. It is in moments like this that you realise just how immune to the scale of this problem this country remains.
Am I in favour of the proposed law? Hell yes.
Pass it. Get these dregs of humanity out of our football stadiums. Prosecute them to the fullest limit of the law. Condemn them to a life of mortification.
Don’t offer them any prospect of rehabilitation (unless the person in question is a professional footballer, at which point you must understand what they are going through, send them to “educational” classes and teach them a better way; we absolutely must not put them under the kind of scrutiny or pressure or hold them to any standard which might otherwise impact their ability to make a living.)
Mocking the dead has no place in football. It has no place anywhere. If people cannot attend a match without singing about tragedy, then they should not be in a stadium at all.
But this still feels like a joke, because it continues to dance around the deeper problem. The real problem is not just about individual chants. It is about how a culture of hatred in this country is normalised, excused and accepted when it is directed at one particular community. Just one brand of hatred. Just one variety of it.
Because if this were aimed at almost any other ethnic or religious group, nobody would tolerate it for a second.
That is the part Scotland does not want to talk about.
It does not want to talk about why certain songs have been permitted to echo around stadiums for decades. It does not want to talk about why anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile is still framed as tradition by some, as banter by others and as an impossible problem by those who simply do not want to deal with it.
It does not want to talk about the fact that we can move swiftly when the political will exists, but somehow become paralysed when the hatred being discussed is the kind this country has learned to live with. And that is the real scandal here.
Not that Scotland may criminalise tragedy chanting. It should.
The scandal is that Scotland can apparently recognise the need to protect some people from hatred in football stadiums and around the sport while still refusing to confront the hatred that has been normalised against others for generations.
That is not consistency. That is not justice. That is not moral seriousness.
It is gutless. It is fraudulent. It says “all forms of bigotry are equal but some are more equal than others” and those of us who have lived with it our whole lives are absolutely pig sick of the double standard. Protection. But only for some people.
And they want to congratulate themselves and call it justice.
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The Famine Song also qualifies as tragedy chanting, on an even bigger scale.
100% correct TonyB!
I’ve wracked my brain trying to find ways of confronting the sectarianism issue in Scotland. I’ve written lengthy pleas to police Scotland, FIFA and UEFA to try to get their involvement, via the hate crime, fair play and discrimination laws and rules. I’ll try the government next as I’ve just realised I hadn’t done so.
I think a major part of the problem in Scotland is that the Protestant religion exists purely to protest against the Catholic religion.
This means that the putrid corpse of rangers football club, the orange and masonic flag orders and most of the legal and policing systems and of course the media, in their limited minds, have to preserve and protect their existential rights, and by extension their very reason for being on this planet.
From my understanding and what I’ve read, discrimination laws have been formed by a discrimated person or group of persons, taking the perpetrators to court, aligned with widespread campaigns running concurrently. This has led to Women’s rights (suffragettes) Ethics rights (Black Lives Matter) and many other such outcomes. I’m not sure there has been a comparative catholic movement in Scotland, or how far it would get if there was one.
It’s so difficult to figure out how to bring us catholics into a similar level of social conscience as those other equally deserving groups. I must admit that the only consolation I get is from my genuine sympathy for anyone who was damned from birth to be born a Protestant. I wouldn’t have had the will to live such a ling and as happy and fulfilled life as I’ve had, without the freedom of choice to savour the joys of life for its own sake, rather than base my whole existence on protesting against other people’s freedoms.
All considered, I’ll take my Irish Catholicism and all the struggles that have come with it, every day of the week!
Dannygal, Ireland is a far better place for many people since it outgrew the Catholic religion. Maybe good for you but not good for most women or certain minorities like gays etc.
Catholicism, protestant,islam etc. Its all a dangerous scourge on society.
Why do some people take all that bullshit seriously in this day and age. Practically all religious books were written by men to suppress woman and persecute certain members of society and it’s still on going, and encouraged by many countries and governments
Thankfully it has little bearing in law anymore in this country.
People who sing any songs about death to catholics, Muslims, jews, football fans, anyone, should be ashamed of themselves.
I am all for blasphemy though. Anyone who calls out religion is doing the world a favour. It is hokum pokum fucking nonsense.
I believe in the ginger witch far more than that voodoo bullshit that we call religion on this planet.
Mr Mojorisin, as someone who was brought up as a Roman Catholic, I do agree with your comments. When I became old enough to think for myself I read the Catholic Bible, the King James Bible, the Quran and quite a bit of the Jewish religion and concluded that I was better off without religion, but described myself as a Christian, as I still believe in God and say my prayers every day. While I know that many people don’t have my belief, nonetheless I just try to live a decent life and try not to do wrong to others. I don’t believe that religion does this, as there have been millions killed in the name of religion which cannot be right.
As for sectarian songs I did sing them when I was a lot younger but stopped when I realised that SOME of them weren’t right. However, we know who we’re talking about when it comes to sectarian songs, so the sooner this is outlawed, the better. But Celtic have get their house in order and start by banning those who sing about the Ibrox Disaster among others, otherwise we forfeit the moral obligation to take offence.
Fair comment broony and I mostly agree.
The Celtic support would self police in the old days which would mean sometimes skirmishes amongst the support. The ultra culture has stopped that and the 66 stuff which embarrasses us at Ibrox is hardly challenged by the mainstream support. Few have the balls or will to call these people out for fear of reprisals.
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
We either have free speech, or we don’t.
& Free speech means the right to say the things you don’t like to hear, not just the things you do like to hear.
& If we don’t have free speech, which btw, we don’t, what with these appalling “hate speech” laws, which have became defacto blasphemy laws, who gets to pick & choose who gets to say what?
So they sing about a razor gang from 100 years ago, so what.
Personally, I’d love nothing better than if we did to that song what we’ve done to simply the best – because they would stop it pretty quickly if we belted out the Billy b(h)oys every time we beat them. We take it’s power away by doing that.
Anyway, it’s just a thought.
HH
There’s no need to do that, would just give them some sort of comfort knowing they’d touched a nerve.
I’m in The 100 Acres pub just now, which is a Celtic pub. I was therefore surprised to find that I’m alongside some sevco fans at the bar. They’re watching the horse racing with their lines on the bar.
I jumped in the air when Comanche Brave came in at 11-1, which I’d backed.
One of their wife’s asked why I backed it and I said I’d watched the Sitting Bull documentary and just loved the name of the horse.
I could see the worst of the bigots shuffling and mumbling uncomfortably, and then the trainer’s name came up on the screen: Donnacha Aidan O’Brien.
The bigot just shouted “f**k this” and left the pub!
LOL Well one Danny, I was on the Japanese favourite that finished 3rd.
Excellent Danny, and nice to see Bloom get another second prize
The sheer fact that orange marches are permitted and indeed encouraged shows we will never be rid of the scourge of bigotry and sectarianism. Ban all religions, sell off all the assets and distribute the money to the poor and needy of the world
Its a great idea big steve but maybe better to marginalise them than ban them. Religion is a joke. The orange order is a fucking circus parade. Most young folk want peace not hate, but the orange order, most countries and most religions are run by old bitter men.
God help us…pardon the pun 🙂
My two black cats (Kit and Kat) set about a cocapoo from across the road, which just happened to be wearing and orange bandana. There was a lot of hissing and meowing going on, don’t speak cat so can’t make my mind up if I should withdraw the dreamies, or class it as a pure an simple act of defending their territory.
I am not particularly religious But I would bet that most of the people who disrespect historical tragedies with their chants and songs of hate don’t practice any religion. Most of the wars in the so called name of religion or race are just a front used by evil people, and are really mostly about land seizure, mineral wealth, money and political power.
The American Evangelical Christian right with some Catholics amongst them, The Fundamental Islamists, the Zionist Jews, the Fanatical Hindus and even the hardline Buddhists are the extremists. How anybody could believe literally in all the so called Holy books is beyond me.
Tolerance and peaceful co-existence should be the watchwords of humanity, but quite honestly anyone thinking that the destruction of all religions would bring about peace throughout the World, is going to be disappointed. Elements of The Human race will always find a way to disagree and turn to violence. The warmongers would have to be suppressed and controlled by the peacekeepers, who would have to go to war with the warmongers to bring about peace and so it goes on and on and on throughout history.
To blame all that on charitable and well intentioned people who are religious but tolerant is just stupid.
As far as “hate speech” goes I have always gone along with the nursery line “Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones but Names Will Never Hurt Me”.
Legislation is a waste of time, James your Blog is definitely the thinking Celtic supporters go to blog.
Wish the real Fitba wid be back for us to dicuss the serious things in life.
Micmac, Zionism is about providing a free country for Jews to live safely. Lets remember that jews cannot live safely in any one of the muslim countries surrounding them. I dont get religion, but I understand people wanting a safe place to live in their ancestral homeland.
How you can compare that with flying planes into skyscrapers I just dont understand.
Mojo when have you ever read any comment from me comparing the twin towers atrocity with Israel. stop misrepresenting my comments.
Just for the record Jews and Christian communities lived in various Muslim countries peacefully for centuries, until the whole region was destabilised by the supplanting of a Jewish State, on land that had been populated by a majority Muslim population for around 1500 years. A minority of Jewish and Christian groups lived alongside them peacefully, until Zionist Ideology of reclaiming the Jewish promised land of Bible mythology began in late 19th century Europe.
Most of the population of Israel are first or second generation European colonisers. If everyone in the World was supplanted back to where our ancestors originated from between 1500 and 2000 years ago, it would cause chaos and violence in the World, and that’s exactly what has happened in the Middle East.
For the record, I don’t have any sympathy for hardline Muslim ideology, but that doesn’t blind me to the injustice of people being driven out of their homes and property by land grabbers, enabled and armed by their powerful Western allies.
For a guy who says he doesn’t have much time for religion, you seem to justify the right to steal and Colonise land, based on people being of the Jewish religion.
I believe every country should be secular, with no official State religions.
Great piece James. The comments section with everyone above giving their thoughts is what sets this site apart from others.
For what its worth being brought up in a strict Catholic family gave me some good principles but also caused me real stress. Marrying a protestant with no interest in religion wasn’t easy. Choose between your religion and your woman. Getting married, signed lots of papers promising the priest and the church that my children would be Catholic. He then got all the information need to share the service which my family were looking forward to. After all that, He didn’t turn up to do his part on the day. I believe in God but religion for me can get stuffed.
Jimmy.. religion protestant or Catholic is a fucking joke…..religion in general fucks up society.
1
Couldn’t agree more Mr Mojorison.
Morning all,
Right , let’s go.
Police Scotland ( agents of the crown) are at fault entirely.
A law was brought in, regarding hate crimes and i have never seen or heard of anyone being convicted in court of a hate crime.
As I have said on here before that ibrox and police operate Hand in Hand to stop anyone being charged with a hate crime whilst attending matches at the cesspit that ibrox is.
The police could quite easily zoom in on anyone they want at matches, identify them singing their sectarian rascist songs and easily pull them from the stands, to be arrested and banged up for the weekend to appear in court if PF office ( agents of the crown)have decided to charge them . 10 people a week should be arrested minimum, would this put an end to vile hatred being spouted by the heathens that attend ibrox ?
Writing this , I think now that the PF (agent of the crown) might decide not to charge them, hell, the judge ( agent of the crown) might decide no case to answer and let the culprits off scot free.
In all the games I attended home and away, I never sang about the ibrox disaster,
Mr. Mojorisin, I sympathise with a lot of your points re religion causing many wars and mass deaths, however I’m talking more about my experiences of being discriminated against to a level of unfairness not shared by protestants in this country. It’s been shared by other discriminated groups, but as I said, they’ve been able to overturn it by campaigns and changes to the laws.
Are You saying that we catholics should just suck it up and get on with it?
Is it okay that I’ve been denied jobs and promotions based purely on being a catholic? Even if that doesn’t happen to Protestants?
If so I don’t understand your justification for taking that position.
I dont know what line of work you are in danny but I dont think many people in this country (ie. Britain or Ireland) give a fuck about religion anymore apart from the folk coming in . I never understand the folk who are presently coming to this country because of the oppressive situation in their own country and then take their bullshit religion with them.
You talk about Irish Catholicism as if it is a great thing. Maybe for you but it wasn’t great for many woman or minorities. Ireland as a country has thankfully distanced itself from the oppressive Catholic church and changed many laws which didnt please the church.
The death of all religion would be a great step forward for humanity.
Regarding the orange walks. They are dying out and most scottish non catholics wish they were banned too.
I hate seeing our football club linked with a religion like the Ibrox entity. It makes us look medieval and around 50 per cent of our support no longer identifies as Irish Catholic.
Danny, one thought. The people I work with. I dont know what religion they are if any, unless they make it totally obvious. I guess many Muslims get discriminated against in this country consciously and subconsciously but in modern Scotland there is also positive discrimination.
I would not know if folk are Catholic or protestant though. Its a joke to assume Celtic supporters are catholic because many are protestant or have no religion which is my preferred option.
Mr. Mojorisin, I do not disagree with your points. It’s just that I’m making a slightly different point. I’m not relating any of the discrimination that I’ve suffered from to Celtic or to Scottish Football.
I’m talking purely about what I’ve experienced through purely being a catholic in the West of Scotland, and mainly in Greenock where I was brought up.
The main point I’m making however, comes from more recent times when I see almost all forms of discrimination being dealt with by campaigns, protests and government intervention leading to new laws. Unless I’m missing something, the only group that can still be openly discriminated against in this country, without fear of retribution, is Roman Catholics.
Fair enough Danny, I guess Greenock can be a tough gig.
I was born in Glasgow lived in the West of Scotland and worked in different parts of Scotland. Nobody seemed to give a fuck what religion anybody was. Most scottish folk dont give a shit about religion but I get your point that it still happens.
The football club should distance itself from the Catholic Church. We dont need that bullshit. Yes remember the roots but give up the nonsense. The only other club in Britain that identifies with a religion is the Ibrox entity. It is embarrassing to be in the same conversation as them.