One of my biggest criticisms with “fan phone ins” and that they tend to get the ramblers and dissemblers and those who get nervous and anxious once they realise they are on the air.
What you don’t tend to get are forensic discussions from people who are absolutely sure of themselves and on rock solid ground. They are, for most “pundits”, a free hit.
The free hit is not the kind of call Andy Walker took on a radio show the other day.
He got into a debate with a Celtic fan who came to the call with his guns loaded and his facts right and although most of the media is talking about how Walker dismissed his comments I don’t think he did a good job of it.
I think, actually, that Andy Walker got owned on that call.
The best way to do this is to go over the transcript of it, which was published on a Facebook site by a gleeful Celtic fan who listened in, and to cover it bit by bit in the manner of one of those reports I love to dissect in detail. I think this is brilliant.
This is how the call opens, with Frank putting his feelings out there. At this stage Walker probably thinks he’s got just another ranting guy without a clear argument, but he is wrong.
Frank: “The time has come. The laughs and jokes have got to stop. We have to do something about this refereeing and the VAR. It’s beyond a joke. Andy, you were commentating yesterday, it’s utterly beyond belief what goes on in this country. We have to take a stock of how we set up our refereeing situation here. You can’t have in any sensible, anyone with obvious Rangers tendencies refereeing a Rangers v Celtic game. That’s not just yesterday as it has been going on for decades. We have to grasp this and until we do, the same things are going to keep happening.”
Walker: “I don’t believe the game is corrupt Frank, do you?”
Frank: “In my almost 50 years of watching Celtic, I have been watching a rigged game.”
Walker: “You know that Celtic have been dominant for the last, however many years. Utterly dominant Frank. What is rigged in that?”
This is now part of the standard media argument, and it’s lazy, patronising guff. Because we’ve been successful there can’t be anything underhanded going on? Fortunately, Frank has the perfect response to this brainless line of defence.
Frank: “What’s rigged Andy is we have won it, despite the officials, despite what’s going on the pitch.”
And he’s right. We’ve been far too good.
We’ve won half a dozen games this season where “Honest Mistakes” have resulted in the sorts of decisions which might otherwise have proven costly. I always say the best time to have this debate is right now, when we’re winning, when officials have failed to stop us from securing the points, and now our enemies are actually using that against us!
Walker: “Frank, I go to a lot of games. I could make a case for every club. Give me the tapes for every club. I’ll give you some horrific refereeing decisions for every club.”
Frank: “Andy, we know that, that’s football. What I am talking about here and what I am saying is that you cannot have someone refereeing who has allegiances to one side or the other. Whether it’s Celtic or Rangers, you can’t have that. It can’t happen in a fair society.”
Walker’s second attempt to deflect the point doesn’t meet with any more success than the first. A pitiful attempt is easily parried … and the guy brings to the fore the point he’s been looking to make, and he springs it on Walker like an ambush. Then Walker, who is not used to being challenged in this manner does what every trainee lawyer knows never to do; he asks an open ended question without thinking, without an inkling of what the answer might be.
Walker: “So what do you want to happen?”
Frank: “Same as in England. This isn’t some outlandish thing and happens in a foreign world. In England, you declare your interests. You must declare your interests and in England you can’t referee a game where your allegiance is to a particular club involved in that match. That’s common sense, that’s nothing crazy.”
That’s a point so sensible that Walker is left with three options; to offer a rebuttal and a reason why this shouldn’t happen, to agree with it and concede the point or to waffle and try to move the subject to safer ground.
That’s the gutless option and the one he goes with.
Walker: “Frank, I played for Motherwell and Hibs. We went to Celtic and Rangers, and there was steam coming out my ears with some of the decisions that went against us. When I played for Celtic, there were some decisions we got that I couldn’t believe we got them. We got them because of the crowd and I do believe there’s an element of human nature where you’ve got thousands screaming for whatever it is. There’s an element of being safe and there were some laughable decisions I got as a Celtic player. I played under Billy McNeill and played with Tommy Burns, I don’t think any of them believed there was anything untoward. I know there might be noises from people within the club that the SFA and referees have always been against Celtic. I don’t see it. Frank, I don’t believe our game is corrupt.”
Total waffle. No attempt whatsoever to engage with the point the guy made. The guy has offered a simple solution to the issue of perceived bias and Walker is dissembling like a Tory MP caught in a lie on national television. Pathetic. The mention of Tommy Burns is one I find particularly hard to stomach considering his stony silence as Ibrox fans mocked his dead friend. But he’s not even got his facts right here … and the guy does. The guy is all over this. And he bludgeons him with it.
Frank: “Andy, you just made a statement there that is completely false and actually you have to retract it, regarding Billy McNeil and other Celtic managers. Billy McNeill, in an article as I did my research, that there was undoubtedly bias from referees against Celtic in a game against Rangers. Undoubtedly. You can research it. You can find it. Tell me Andy, you go back to Jock Stein, I can go through them all and embarrass you.”
Oh that is just glorious! “I can go through them all and embarrass you …” Almost every manager of Celtic I’ve ever watched or listened to has commented on certain refs and our long history of being screwed over by the SFA is laid out here and elsewhere in enough detail that there’s not the least doubt that there have been times when that organisation has had an obvious pro-Ibrox bent. And you’ll notice that there’s still no effort to engage the guy’s point.
Walker: “I’m talking about conversations I have had with Billy McNeill.
Frank: “Can I speak without interruption please?”
Walker: “Fill your boots.”
Frank: “Jock Stein said ‘Celtic play against not 11 men but 14, the referee and two linesmen. If you want to get David Hay, the most mild-mannered man you will ever find. He suggested Celtic leave to go to English football because of the refereeing. Do you want me to go on, Andy?”
Walker: “Yes, keep going.”
Frank: “The reality is there. I have been to Celtic games home and away for 30 years. I can’t go now. But I did. I watches all the games. There’s nothing you can tell me that I’ve never seen. The point I am trying to make to your listeners is it’s not what I wanted to see, it’s not we are hard done by, it’s reality.”
A storming section where the guy absolutely ran rings around Walker, assaulting him with actual examples of what he’s talking about. He could have listed many, many more.
He clearly came to the discussion in full possession of his facts.
Walker: “You think the game is corrupt. I don’t know if the people inside the Celtic boardroom feel the same way as you. Why not?”
Frank: “Andy, Celtic supporters have asked for years, decades, for Celtic to step up and say enough is enough. The board under John Reid if you remember 10 years ago when they brought the Icelandic referees in, he said: ‘We are not any longer going to sit at the back of the bus.’ Since then, I thought Celtic would take the bull by the horns and sort this out.”
Walker: “We will never get rid of controversial decisions in football but my beef with Frank is that he thinks Scottish football is corrupt. I don’t.”
Again, Walker has blundered by asking the guy for his thoughts on why Celtic have never commented if they believe this.
The guy hammers back with John Reid’s famous quote about how we don’t seek favours but won’t settle for being treated as some lesser club. We have, at times, gone on the offensive over the SFA … Fergus himself, who Walker played under, took them to court and won over the Cadete scandal and toppled Jim Farry.
Frank: “That’s fine. Can I finish? My point here is, I have seen corrupt referees down the years, trust me, and any Celtic supporter knows what I am talking about is common, decent justice. If you’re in a court of law or arbitration, you can’t have people making judgements who are aligned to one side of the other.”
Walker: “Frank, your next port of call should be someone on the Celtic board. Honestly, get them on the side and see where you can take it.”
A complete wimp-out by Walker right at the end, after the guy has, again, raised the simple point on which his argument is based; the uncomplicated proposal that refs here should have to declare their football allegiances just as they do in England and elsewhere, a point Walker has made not the least attempt to engage with in spite of being challenged directly on it.
It is especially delicious when you consider that he’s saying this even as Celtic’s board finally gets off the fence on this and demands to meet with the SFA for an explanation into some of the decisions we’ve watched in the last few months.
When I tell you that there are plenty of people inside Celtic who do know that something stinks up there I mean it. That’s never been my gripe; my gripe is that we’ve too often done things behind the scenes instead of getting in front of it publicly.
The reason Walker doesn’t know that is the reason Nicholas has to make up lies about what’s going on inside Parkhead; he’s not welcome in the building except on official duties.
I thought that caller destroyed him.
I know the media thinks Walker handled it well, but he was beaten in every part of that exchange, and so to Frank, whoever you are, a hearty thank you from every Celtic fan. You owned him.
Absolutely brilliant maybe we the supporters should get FRANK as our sports correspondent.
Celtic teamsi meant
Maybe someone like Frank is required to speak on behalf of the fans to our board… It’s them I feel real anger towards, not just the current one but every board that has ran the club in my 45yrs supporting the club. The death of the previous club at Ibrokes proved we were not paranoid (in fact we were not paranoid enough) and there now needs to be a public show from the club otherwise the (rigged) show will go on as before.
Well said Frankie bhoy you ways been well armed dealing with these melts heard you destroying old ” skeletor” Rae few years ago on ” Snyde”” I salute you sir and Andy walker that wee prick that always had to have the last word , he that wee sarcastic guy , ” smart arse guy” we all deamt with, well I know I dealt with plenty little weak boys! I thought he redeemed himself few times but he really is a wee weasal he knows the truth alright and he was on record saying similar to Frank in the past! Tho he also the guy that leaked Cektic teams to the press when big Billy dropped him early 1990 against the huns when we pushed Mikey Galloway upfront, as I said a weasal of a man ohhh my apologies to all the weasals out there
Not only is he a weasel, but he is a weak one.
Andy walker you mean wanker
Walker is a dick. Remember Simunovic launching miller into orbit? Even after seeing replays the wee tosser STILL couldn’t admit he got it wrong. HH
Well I can honestly say I thoroughly enjoyed reading that from you frank you have just told how every celtic fan feels we have to believe something will happen sooner or later we look forward to the day when the guilty people of the spfl have been found out God bless you frank hail hail
Walker is just a wee blue tongued rat. Is he trying to say in all the games he played for celtic that his manager never mentioned the fact that they’re playing the team in blue and the team in black????? Lying wee scroat of a man. He’s worse than a full blood hun he panders to the scum.
Walker is not very intelligent as we can see here by sticking his fingers in his ears and refusing to listen to a perfectly good and logical argument. I agree, Frank had him cornered, but you cannot reason with an unreasonable person.
Slightly off point, but another thing nobody seemed to see, or didn’t want to mention in the Goldson handball incident, is the fact that Goldson trying to block Starfelts effort by charging it down with a studs up challenge…hence Starfelt half pulled out of his goal attempt.
No way we’d have got away with that ANYWHERE on the park on Monday.
I do not listen to any of these things, know they are largely reliant on trying to satisfy the most arrogant entitled losers. Hats off to Frank ???. Need to get allocation taken out of sfa hands. Needs to be an outsourced service chosen and paid for by all clubs.
I do not listen to any of these things, know they are largely reliant on trying to satisfy the most arrogant entitled losers. Hats off to Frank ???. Need to get allocation taken out of sfa hands. Needs to be an outsourced service chosen and paid for by all clubs.
Never a truer statement made, for decades we’ve watched this shit show. Surely now we’ve seen how VAR Favers only one team ,it is time to confront the SFA. Or take it further..fifa..refereeing standard is farcical ..no its pure cheating. No more crap honest mistakes. ANYONE BUT CELTIC
Not heard the call but Walker the Soup taking wee Wanker is NEVER gonny call out the game as corrupt! Just bcoz we highlight its as bent as a 50 Bob Note whilst still winning Lg after Lfg DIZNY mean it isn’t! It’s not sour grapes we’re just SICK & TIRED ae these Hun Bastard Refs give us Fuk All except when it’s IMPOSSIBLE tae dae so! Without VAR the FILTH would be 20+ pts behind & struggling wae the MINI HUNS fur 3rd!!
what were the games we got unbelievable decisions as i was at most of them when he wore the hoops ?.
Just a throwaway line, he’d NEVER be able tae back any of it up coz it’s a BLATANT LIE!! Tae the best of my knowledge Walker was there fur the Centenary & scored the winner at Liebrox in a 2-1 victory which virtually clinched the Lg! Also scored a late winner at TyneCastle in another 2-1 as well as Cup Semi when a goal doon in injury time b4 Henry Smith threw a cpl in the net! NEVER in ANY of these games did we get UNBELIEVABLE decisions as Wanker claims! Games were won with the same Mantra as now in that we NEVER STOPPED!! Shame the LYIN wee PRIK has SELECTIVE Memory!!
I have also followed Celtic for 60 plus year’s and like Frank I am unable to attend anymore my dear old dad passed away last year at the grand old of94 he often told me on countless times when Celtic were denied many decisions by the men in black and tiny Wharton being his main offender this is inbred Into the people who run Scottish football and will require a major shift The Celtic board must follow this all the way to the end but I won’t hold my breath my dear old dad would be singing the Celtic song at the top of his voice if it ever does.
Walker is after Shoo`s job when he retires. He states that referees are not corrupt and then mentions about the (corrupt) decisions given to Celtic when he was there simply because the ref was influenced by the crowd. At the recent Hibs game against Old Firm Sevco he never mentioned the stuff landing in Marshall`s box except to say that he couldn`t understand why Marshall was clearing it away. No word of condemnation for holding up play.
I see Peter Grant is talking along the same lines now because he was sitting too close to Barry Ferguson.
99% of ex celtic players must be cowardly crawlers just to get a few bob without exerting any effort except to spew rubbish.
I do not listen to any of these things, know they are largely reliant on trying to satisfy the most arrogant entitled losers. Hats off to Frank ???. Need to get allocation taken out of sfa hands. Needs to be an outsourced service chosen and paid for by all clubs.